On Thu 26/05/11 17:14 , Wookey <
wookey@wookware.org> wrote:
> Not if you do native development, which is what Debian and Ubuntu
> push you towards and it's more and more practical as the arm hardware
> gets better.
The ARM hardware gets better and better, but stuff like storage continues to be (comparatively) grim. If you think that compiling from an SD card is fun, I dunno...
We have no ATA or SATA buses on this beast - if you want serious storage, it's USB, or slum it with NAND or SD.
> Wrong. I always care about power. And so should everyone.
So stop using big HDMI displays, when you could just X in and open a window on your desktop machine.
While I do care about power, if the product becomes unsaleable because of a power compromise too far, we've lost, not won.
> This is the real question. Is it worth the pins? I don't have an
> answer to that. So long as we are happy with the answer 'go buy a
> beagle if you wanted to plug it into a TV' then we don't need it.
Or plug an HDMI chip onto the DSS bus connector. I'm not trying to rule it out completely, I just don't want HDMI fitted as the default. Heck, Beagle has _no_ way to deliver HDMI, it simply used an HDMI-shaped socket. We're offering more, not less.
We'll have SDTV inherently (costs me a couple of resistors and a connector).
> Ethernet and DVI/VGA/HDMI are incredibly convenient for development.
Ethernet is provided, Beagle-XM-like, on a USB hub chip. This seems to work fine (although I don't know if the Ethernet comes alive during, or after, boot).
You'll get 2 direct Ether ports to the OMAP, and the third will go through the hub, producing Ether 10/100 and 4 more USB ports. If you want more than 6 USB ports, you'll need a (powered) hub.
The resources on Challenger will obviously be mission-appropriate. Start campaigning for what you want, I don't care much (yet).
(I didn't get any response when I asked if people fancied a couple of the USBs landing on Mini PCI-Express slots, Does anyone have an opinion? (These wee beasties -
<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MiniPCI_and_MiniPCI_Express_cards.jpg> - handy for wifi, GSM and some other IO channels.
> I amdit I don;t understand the difference between LCD and
> DVI/VGA/HDMI. Don't they all amount to "a genuine framebuffered,
> pixel-painting display"?
Yes - an alternative is a USB-connected monitor. Which Nick has working. And it doesn't need 240MBytes/sec - it's a remote framebuffer, and only needs updates. Same as a remote X display, or a VNC framebuffer that doesn't get written out to an actual display. So many alternatives to dragging another monitor onto a crowded desk and finding cables & power for it.
> Any display will do, widely available ones with standard connections
> are just easy to dev with.
Serial terminal for first boot, and after that there are many, many choices, of which HDMI is probably the most crappy.
> Wookey
> --
> Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
> http://wookware.org/
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>
%20grim.%20If%20you%20think%20that%20compiling%20from%20an%20SD%20card%20is%20fun,%20I%20dunno...%0A>%20We%20have%20no%20ATA%20or%20SATA%20buses%20on%20this%20beast%20-%20if%20you%20want%20serious%20storage,%20it's%20USB,%20or%20slum%20it%20with%20NAND%20or%20SD.%0A>%20%0A>%20>%20Wrong.%20I%20always%20care%20about%20power.%20And%20so%20should%20everyone.%0A>%20%0A>%20So%20stop%20using%20big%20HDMI%20displays,%20when%20you%20could%20just%20X%20in%20and%20open%20a%20window%20on%20your%20desktop%20machine.%20%0A>%20While%20I%20do%20care%20about%20power,%20if%20the%20product%20becomes%20unsaleable%20because%20of%20a%20power%20compromise%20too%20far,%20we've%20lost,%20not%20won.%20%0A>%20%0A>%20>%20This%20is%20the%20real%20question.%20Is%20it%20worth%20the%20pins?%20I%20don't%20have%20an%0A>%20>%20answer%20to%20that.%20So%20long%20as%20we%20are%20happy%20with%20the%20answer%20'go%20buy%20a%0A>%20>%20beagle%20if%20you%20wanted%20to%20plug%20it%20into%20a%20TV'%20then%20we%20don't%20need%20it.%0A>%20%0A>%20Or%20plug%20an%20HDMI%20chip%20onto%20the%20DSS%20bus%20connector.%20I'm%20not%20trying%20to%20rule%20it%20out%20completely,%20I%20just%20don't%20want%20HDMI%20fitted%20as%20the%20default.%20Heck,%20Beagle%20has%20_no_%20way%20to%20deliver%20HDMI,%20it%20simply%20used%20an%20HDMI-shaped%20socket.%20We're%20offering%20more,%20not%20less.%20%0A>%20We'll%20have%20SDTV%20inherently%20(costs%20me%20a%20couple%20of%20resistors%20and%20a%20connector).%20%0A>%20%0A>%20>%20Ethernet%20and%20DVI/VGA/HDMI%20are%20incredibly%20convenient%20for%20development.%0A>%20%0A>%20Ethernet%20is%20provided,%20Beagle-XM-like,%20on%20a%20USB%20hub%20chip.%20This%20seems%20to%20work%20fine%20(although%20I%20don't%20know%20if%20the%20Ethernet%20comes%20alive%20during,%20or%20after,%20boot).%20%0A>%20You'll%20get%202%20direct%20Ether%20ports%20to%20the%20OMAP,%20and%20the%20third%20will%20go%20through%20the%20hub,%20producing%20Ether%2010/100%20and%204%20more%20USB%20ports.%20If%20you%20want%20more%20than%206%20USB%20ports,%20you'll%20need%20a%20(powered)%20hub.%20%0A>%20The%20resources%20on%20Challenger%20will%20obviously%20be%20mission-appropriate.%20Start%20campaigning%20for%20what%20you%20want,%20I%20don't%20care%20much%20(yet).%20%0A>%20(I%20didn't%20get%20any%20response%20when%20I%20asked%20if%20people%20fancied%20a%20couple%20of%20the%20USBs%20landing%20on%20Mini%20PCI-Express%20slots,%20Does%20anyone%20have%20an%20opinion?%20(These%20wee%20beasties%20-%20%0A>%20<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MiniPCI_and_MiniPCI_Express_cards.jpg>%20-%20handy%20for%20wifi,%20GSM%20and%20some%20other%20IO%20channels.%20%0A>%20%0A>%20>%20I%20amdit%20I%20don;t%20understand%20the%20difference%20between%20LCD%20and%0A>%20>%20DVI/VGA/HDMI.%20Don't%20they%20all%20amount%20to%20%22a%20genuine%20framebuffered,%0A>%20>%20pixel-painting%20display%22?%0A>%20%0A>%20Yes%20-%20an%20alternative%20is%20a%20USB-connected%20monitor.%20Which%20Nick%20has%20working.%20And%20it%20doesn't%20need%20240MBytes/sec%20-%20it's%20a%20remote%20framebuffer,%20and%20only%20needs%20updates.%20Same%20as%20a%20remote%20X%20display,%20or%20a%20VNC%20framebuffer%20that%20doesn't%20get%20written%20out%20to%20an%20actual%20display.%20So%20many%20alternatives%20to%20dragging%20another%20monitor%20onto%20a%20crowded%20desk%20and%20finding%20cables%20&%20power%20for%20it.%20%0A>%20%0A>%20>%20Any%20display%20will%20do,%20widely%20available%20ones%20with%20standard%20connections%0A>%20>%20are%20just%20easy%20to%20dev%20with.%20%0A>%20%0A>%20Serial%20terminal%20for%20first%20boot,%20and%20after%20that%20there%20are%20many,%20many%20choices,%20of%20which%20HDMI%20is%20probably%20the%20most%20crappy.%20%0A>%20%0A>%20>%20Wookey%0A>%20>%20--%20%0A>%20>%20Principal%20hats:%20%20Linaro,%20Emdebian,%20Wookware,%20Balloonboard,%20ARM%0A>%20>%20http://wookware.org/%0A>%20>%20_______________________________________________%0A>%20>%20Balloon%20mailing%20list%0A>%20>%20http://balloonboard.org/mailman/listinfo/balloon%0A>%20>%20%0A>%20>%20%0A>%20%0A>%20%0A>%20 "Reply to this message")
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